Use of counting words

Is there some secret to knowing when a counting word is necessary? For example, in the lesson on aboard the plane, the attendent (Lin) responds Shíèrge xiǎoshí shífēnzhōng. After I pondered it a bit, I realized that the term zia3oshi4 for hours required "ge", but no counting word at all was required for minutes/fen1zhong1. The same is true in other places, but it has not been discussed anywhere. Is it just a wrinkle one must memorize for each word?

Nǐhǎo clifford, Thanks for your post. Unfortunately, measure words aren't simple. :( They vary according to the various nouns involved. We just have to remember the corresponding word one by one. I know that sounds daunting, but it will come more naturally the more and more you're exposed to them in Rocket Chinese. All the best for your course! :D Lin PIng

Hi, Clifford. The words that to us seem to be nouns but which don't require measure words (= 'counting words' = 'numerical classifiers'), are sometimes analyzed as being measure words themselves, like fēnzhōng, and therefore don't require a separate measure word. The ones I can think of all have to do with measurements, as here: 'minute' is a way of measuring time. Not all words dealing with measurement are like this, obviously (e.g. xiǎoshí) but I think you'll find that all NON-measurement-related words do in fact take (specific) measure words. So, while something like 'xiǎoshí' might/might not require a measure word and you just have to memorize which words of that type do and don't, words for just about anything else, from 'jet plane' to 'mountain' to 'shoe' consistently require measure words when a number is used with them. I hope this has not confused you more. :-) Tom

Hi Clifford, I would suggest that an approach similar to the way a child learns it's first language is a practical way to go in the early stages. A child learns by rote and only when the level of knowledge is appropriate does he/she become involved in grammatical structure. One can become unecessarily confused to the point where the learning process minimizes one's ability to communicate in order to be grammaticaly correct. BH