Ils n’en veulent acheter aucune ??

Lesson 11.7 (revised)

I must be missing something here. Why is it :

ils n’en veulent acheter aucune

and not :

ils ne veulent en acheter aucune.

Robert

Bonjour Robert,

Sorry for the late reply.

Question:

Am I understanding your question correctly that you're asking why the abverbial pronoun isn't placed before ACHETER because it is the active verb in the sentence, while VOULOIR is the modal verb?

Basic Rule:

The adverbial ‘en’ is always placed in front of the verb to which it refers. While this is usually a conjugated verb, it can also be an infinite if we're using modal verbs or the verb ALLER to express the near future. 

BUT, two rules are mixing:

(1) EN in negative sentences

In negative sentences ‘en’ is attached to ‘ne’ by an apostrophe. For example:

– ils n'en veulent pas (they don't want any)

If there is an infinitive in the sentence and ‘en’ complements that verb, then it can be placed outside the negative structure, in front of the infinitive. For example:

– ils ne veulent pas en acheter (they don't want to buy any)

Here we have the conjugated verb which is negated and then the infinitive which is complemented by the pronoun ‘en’ and these two pieces are clearly separate.

However, in our original example, we don't have a simple negation:

(2) Aucun(e) follows the infinitive, not the conjugated verb.

Since aucun(e) follows the infinitive, the negative structure therefore wraps around the conjugated verb AND the infinitive:

– ils ne veulent acheter aucune voiture (they don't want to buy any car)

EN can either be used within a negative structure and in this case it has to be at the start i.e. n'en. Or, it can be used in front of an infinitive, but outside of a negative structure. Because ne … aucune wraps around both the conjugated verb and the infinitive, then it must be placed at the start of the negative structure:

ils n’en veulent acheter aucune (they don't want to buy any)

I hope this cleared things up and hasn't made things worse.

   -   Mitchell

Bonjour Mitchell

First of all, sticking to the original question, the basic rule is that the pronoun always stays with the infinitive. The only exception is when the pronoun directly modifies the conjugated verb, such as:

elle m'aide à en acheter.  (she is helping me buy some.) Furthermore, negation doesn't make a bit of difference, whether it's:

elle ne m'aide pas à en acheter.  (she isn't helping me buy any.) or

elle ne veut pas m'aider à en acheter.  (she doesn't want to help me buy any.)

the pronoun stays with verb it's modifying.

Now, if there's some rule of grammar that says that the negative adjective, aucun, requires that pronouns be shifted away from the verb that they're associated with, well, hmmm. Sounds like a good reason to avoid overcomplicating a sentence by using both en and aucune, instead of simply, ils ne veulent pas en acheter or ils ne veulent acheter aucun, which, for any practical purpose say the same thing.

Robert

Bonjour Robert,

The Basic Rule:

“Les pronoms en et y sont des clitiques, c’est-à-dire qu’ils sont contigus au verbe sur lequel ils s’appuient. Ils sont le plus généralement placés à gauche du verbe.” Thus, the pronoun adjoins the verb to which it is acting as a complement, whether that be a conjugated verb or one in the infinitive. Generally, that means it is placed directly to the left of the verb, however that is not always the case.

Our Example:

In our very specific example, we have two rules in play:

(1) In the negative, the adverbial pronoun EN is joined to NE with an apostrophe: N'EN, and

(2) Ne…aucune MUST wrap around the conjugated verb AND the infinitive. This rule also applies to ne…personne.

Given that both of these rules must be applied, the sentence structure is fixed as follows:

ils n’en veulent acheter aucune (they don't want to buy any)

Pratically speaking, yes you could simplify the sentence by using one or t'other and the meaning is largely the same. Having said that, this is how people speak and you will come across these structures mixed, so it's better to get exposure now than to be stumped later.

I hope this helps,

   -   Mitchell