Partitive Article "Des"

Hello, let me first apologise if this has been raised before.  

In lesson 5.2 the sentance “nous avons de charmants tableaux par ici” is translated as “we have some charming pictures over here”.  My question is why “de charmants tableaux” and not “des charmants tableaux”. 

Regards,

Charles

Charles,

It's the occurence of the adjective before the noun that reduces the partitive article to de. It's logical to think of this as the adjective filling in for the article (les) in des, so instead of :

some = de + les = des ,  you have some = de + adj.

Note that the adjective must occur before the noun for this to be the case.

Note also that you may still see des before an adjective which precedes a noun if the meaning is something like, of the or from the.

Robert

Thanks Robert.

I just did this lesson and this was my question too. I'm glad I'm not the only one that is confused. Thank you, Charles and Robert!

Quite the coincidence that you've bumped this thread up, Santjie.

I kept running across things like, de l'excellent … and de la bonne … ,  meaning some excellent … and some good … ,  and it drove me nuts until I realized that what I said in response to Charles' question only applies to adjectives before plural nouns, as in Charles' original example.

Perhaps this had already occurred to you two, but this doesn't apply to uncountable nouns, where one would normally use du , de l' , de la  to mean some. So, for example, while,

I have some good chocolates,  is going to be,  j'ai de bons chocolats ;

I have some good butter, is still going to be, j'ai du bon beurre,  not,  j'ai de bon beurre.

but I only have some old bread, is still going to be,  mais je n'ai que du vieux pain..

Robert

No, I haven't even thought about that! Thank you so much. I'm sure you saved me from breaking my brain later on. Now I just need to remember this… ha ha ha!

Now it's my turn. I just did 5.2 and had the same perplexity. Glad I found this answer in the forum. I wish subtle (but clear) grammatical rules like this can be explained in the non-audio lessons more. If you find it explained somewhere, please let me know. Appreciate it.

In spite of this well known rule of grammar, it's still possible to hear native speakers disregard it in everyday speech.

In fact, it's disregarded in Play the Part 2.9 :

Et quelle taille ? On a des petits paquets et des grands paquets.

and you can also torture test Google Translate and see examples such as :

as-tu des petites photos ?
as-tu des grandes photos ?
as-tu des gros cochons ?
il a des derniers mots.

ils ont des premières éditions.

le français a des faux amis.

It's a mystery to me how it decides which way to roll.

The results of numerous internet discussions over the years suggest that the rule is overly formal and not applicable in colloquial French, while others say that disregarding it is just lazy French. Some suggest that it is used in situations where the use of de might be confused with the similarly sounding, deux. As with most things formal, one would expect to see it in writing, yet the well known Le Petit Nicolas, which is formally written, disregards the rule consistently in matters of colloquial speech.

The rule is real, but it's application may not be universal, and no, it's not a regional variation.

Robert

Thank you, Robert, for the detailed account including finding the inconsistency in 2.9! Do you know any French grammar books (hopefully written in English) that introduce this special “de” rule and explain it? I have “Practice Makes Perfect” by Annie Hemingway. Can't seem to find this rule in there.

Hi all, Thanks Robert for your detailed post above but I'm confused. You say in your post:

"In fact, it's disregarded in Play the Part 2.9 :

Et quelle taille ? On a des petits paquets et des grands paquets."

I can't find this anywhere, where is Play the Part 2.9 that contains this phrase?

Charles

Charles, I'm not sure, but perhaps you're not subscribed to the Play the Part add-on? If so, it's in the Role Playing #2 section.

Robert

Eric, there are several French language learning websites that clearly and succinctly state the rule. As far as I know, Lawless French does the best job of nailing it (as it so often does), as their comments include the most vital bits :

“When the plural indefinite or partitive article is used in front of an adjective, des is reduced to de.”

https://www.lawlessfrench.com/grammar/de-vs-du-de-la-des-articles/

"The "des to de in front of adjectives" convention is considered formal, so it is most common in writing and when speaking formally. But it’s not wrong to use it when speaking at a normal register."

https://www.lawlessfrench.com/grammar/des-plus-adjective/

The bottom line for me is de is always grammatically correct in this situation and des isn't. But you shouldn't be surprised to hear des used instead, especially in certain common contexts involving very common adjectives which are discussed in several forums, in different ways, on the internet. One opinion was that using de where others might commonly use des is analogous to saying cannot instead of can't. 

Robert

Thanks Robert, 

As you say lawlessfrench gives a good explanation.  It seems des becomes de before an adjective followed by a noun but stays as des before a noun followed by an adjective.  But in casual everday spoken usage it can stay as des. Simple when you know how 😒

Let me pick your brains again; where do I find the Play the Part add-on. I can't(or should I say I cannot) find it anywhere? 

Charles

Charles, “But in casual everday spoken usage it can stay as des."   seems to me to be stretching it. It's really only in front of certain adjectives that you're likely to hear the colloquial usage. Granted, Lawless does seem to give the impression that it's just everywhere all the time in everyday French, but the more in depth discussions in forums suggest a more limited usage. I'd imagine petit , grand  and gros are the most likely. 

Robert

You haven't received emails like this ?

• A HUGE 60% discount, offering lifetime access to the Rocket French "Play The Part" system for only $59.98. But time is running out! The offer ends at midnight on Cyber Monday (December 2 PST) or as soon as the last of the 500 courses are claimed.

SECURE THE "PLAY THE PART" SYSTEM NOW - Use Coupon Code CYBERMONDAY