Do you have a way to deal with point cheaters?

It has been quite amusing to watch the last six months the first two persons in the point list fighting to beat each other. I think the second person just gave up though... I was just curious how far their stupidity will go. Since they are obviouly adding points just to get a score, why not trying to have a different kind of reward system (ie, max reward for finish an entire lesson/Section depending of percent that the use reached, or maximizing the total points earned in one day/week). Taking this step will only encourage the ones who are trying to study, not to mention to motivate beginners. I understand that it might be difficult to implement, however if you ever have a chance to upgrade your IU, it might be very appreciated by users I believe. Best 

Hi Pascal-B,

Thanks for your feedback. We appreciate your suggestions as we are always working on improving the course. I have passed your comments on to our Language Development team for their consideration. 

If you could also please let me know the two usernames in the Leaderboard, I can have the IT Team review their activity.

Kind Regards!

Tony-S10
igneczy

Thank you Pascal-B, 

I have sent the report to our tech support team so they can review the system. 

Kind Regards!
 

Perhaps you are not using the course correctly. If you think Japanese has problems then turn on the all users points and look at some of the ridiculous points people are earning there.

That said it is probably a good average to pull in 1500 points per hour if you are using the course correctly which I will elaborate on later. 

First your suggestion for bonus points for completing sections does happen. If you complete all the words in hear it say it, know it, quiz, write it then you will get 25 bonus points just for finishing the section. However if you finish it and reset it all to complete it again you will not make another 25 points. You used to get 25 points just for doing one part of the play it section but that has now ceased.

As for earning points if you are using a PC to do the course and start with hear it say it. Actually hit the record button and record your voice, you get more points for actually using this feature. The same with write it. You write it, then hit the record button and it is around 6 points for one word. If you do all this for close to an hour then it would not be unreasonable to expect 1500 points after about an hour.

There is no way to add points unless you are doing the course which leads me to believe that others who have severely high points may have one account with multiple users logging in under the one name.

If you are like me and set aside 1 hour in the morning, 1 hour at lunch time and 1 hour in the evening and do it like that and pull in close to or around 1500 points per hour then that averages 4500 points per day at peak performance. If you want to add up my 64,000 points for the last 30 days then that equates to 2,100 points per day on average.

The other way points get boosted big time is by revision. How about going back to old courses you have already completed and you might be surprised to see that more words have been added. Reset all the scores to zero and start again and blitz it. Time yourself and then reset them all again and try to beat your time. This is one method of speed learning and revising past learnt items.

As for my points I blitz before I go to Japan. I have been in Japan between 7th and 19th July this year and will be there again from 30th September to 16th October again this year.

You saw a massive jump in my points when I went back to the very first lessons, reset them all and blitzed everything in the months before I went there. If you don't use it you lose it with language and you can bet there are always things you will forget so revision is the key to proficiency.

I would be 100% happy for the points to be ditched and replaced with longest streak. So far I am up to 954 days in a row. Perhaps you would like to compete with that one instead?

If you want more facts on points I just blitzed module 1.3 At the Sushi Bar again in 10 minutes and completed all sections for a good 360 points in 10 minutes. Aimed to get everything 100% including voice recording. Speed is the essence for fluency even with basics that you already know. With revision it keeps memory sharp. If I was to do other courses on speed revision like that for an hour then it is 2100 points.

Perhaps you are just not doing enough.

".....key to proficiency."..."Speed is the essence for fluency"
どうぞあなたの説明日本語で書いて下さい。

本当に毎年お休みで日本に行く。昨年の10月に日本に行ったそれから紅葉を見たんだ。この所は日本人は英語を話すことが出来ない https://www.instagram.com/p/BcCawvWlzK-/?taken-by=brisbane_41。先月空手練習ので宇部に行った後でクルーズ休みに行った。https://www.instagram.com/p/BlsjSXJnIu0/?taken-by=brisbane_41。そして来月日本に行くだから毎日日本語を必ず勉強つもりだ

You simply cannot just accuse people of cheating for points just because they want to study the language on a daily basis with a purpose to go to Japan regularly.

As good as this website is it still has its limitations. Going off the course you are taught to expect to hear どちらから来ましたか when in reality they are going to speak to you like this どれ国の来てた. Many of them will speak to you in stem form and omit the keigo unless you are in a formal situation where it is required.

What will really test you is if you ever get the chance to go to Japan and end up in a place where they cannot speak English and it relies entirely on your Japanese skills to get by. Points on this website are not going to save you. Practice will.

I am not sure what is with the other chap and his studies but you are always going to see a surge in activity with my lessons in the months leading up to my visits to Japan be it for Karate training or holidays or both.

".....key to proficiency."..."Speed is the essence for fluency"

Please slow down in your Japanese study and practice more, your Japanese "proficiency" is very questionable (from a native speaker).  がんばって下さい。The end.

My Japanese is fine. I seriously doubt you know any native Japanese speakers. I work with many in tourism and have constant communication with many that I know when I travel there.

The problem with you is that you have not put anything lengthy in the Japanese language into this forum and profess to know more, yet are sadly lacking in basic mathematical skills also by your inability to add up points per hour and figure out what is a normal number of points per hour.

日本語が話せないと那智の滝に一人で着くのは困難です。

I have presented evidence that I have been to a very remote part of Japan, hard for the average tourist to get to and in a place where the locals do not speak the language. Stayed for a few days. 

You have not presented any evidence of even going to Japan, have not demonstrated any Japanese language of more than one small sentence and seem to declare that people are cheating for points.

At least I have put out there evidence of where I have been in Japan, and even dared to write in a more plain sense which would be over the head of anyone who does not have a better than average grasp on the language.

Overall I think you know nothing of the language, do not practice it enough and do not have a wide enough view of what to expect with the language, how it differs around their country or even know any Japanese people. You should be careful with your claim to have a reference from a native Japanese speaker because all I have to do is use LINE and send some stuff off to different Japanese friends to have it confirmed. I bet you would not even know what LINE is until you read it here.

**in a place where locals do not speak the English language** add to the above 4th paragraph.

It appears to me that igneczy is cheating on points to deliberately put their name at the top of the points list. I could not work it out at first but after refreshing the page and seeing over 500 points gained in a mere 30 seconds I realised something had to be wrong.

I believe they are going through flashcards at a high rate of speed simply by hitting "3" and "enter" on the keyboard continuously until the set is finished and then resetting them again.

The best solution to fixing this cheating would be to do the following:
1. Disable all points earned for flashcards by flipping cards. Replace the 2 points per flipping flash cards with something like 10 points for completing the set.
2. Give more points for rocket record. This is actually doing work and what I do most of. If you hit the record button you are actually speaking the language sentence or word into a microphone and getting a result and thereby learning or improving pronunciation. Perhaps increasing the points for rocket record to maybe something like 5 points every time you hit the record button, it would motivate more people to study and practice for points instead of blitzing flashcards simply to get their name at the top.
3. Change the points for "play it" This is time consuming and has grammar, sentence structure and in some languages a foreign alphabet to read. Change that to 25 points for completed section every time. This would encourage more people to actually practice this thing and dissuade them from cheating.

Admittedly I have been on this website for 3 years and got my name to top of the list, I am not going to be happy when some cheater turns up and attempts to get to the top in a mere 6 months.

I think the focus needs to be on points for more language activities  to encourage learning and points not given for menial quick tasks where they can be easily accumulated.

Points cheating ? I've had a wee play around and the only way I found to ramp up quick points  is only with the flash cards as Tony has said above. The max points I've managed in a day is just under 3000, but that's because I have a lot of time on my hands both on leave on the ship. To be honest I'm not interested in points, I'm actually interested in learning Japanese. So perhaps this is the time to focus on that. As for sorting out the problem with someone who merely wishes to accumulate points, well to be honest, the only person they are cheating is themselves.

Hi all - The points system is tabled to be fully reviewed in the New Year. In the meantime, we may make some changes, particularly with respect to the FlashCards, as they have been the most out of kilter imho.

Of course, the idea of the points/streak/leaderboard system is to encourage people to stick at it for their own language learning benefit. As William says they are only cheating themselves. Nevertheless, we are looking at it and working on improving the system.

 

Hi Jason, the badge awards are quite good for encouraging people, points systems make people compete against one another which is also good as long as people are honest. Maybe a way around this is to list peoples' points against the cumulative hours they have used Rocket (I don't know if that is possible)or the number of days (which should be possible) it wouldn't be too difficult to spot anomalies then. i.e if someone has managed 10000 points in 2 hours then there is definitely something amiss. 

Hi William - Anything is possible, the issue is that implementing that sort of tracking will seriously increase the server load, as it will have to be done for all users/members. This could result in slow page load/function or, worst case, server downtime.

We are looking into a practical way to deal with points "gaming". We just have to make sure that we get it as right as we can without adversely affecting the majority of members.

After a quick chat about this we have come up with a few changes that are relatively easy to implement. Namely, only awarding points once the function is complete, which means anyone "rage clicking" a button will have to wait until the recording has fully played before getting any points.

Also, the playing of a piece of Rocket Record audio will be changed to 1 point, currently it is worth 2 points.

And, recording using Rocket Record will be worth 3 points, currently it is worth 2 points.

And finally, FlashCard flipping will only be worth 1 point, as opposed to the 2 it currently earns.

We hope to have these changes in play within the next couple of days!

Hi Jason, it will be interesting to see the changes in operation. I was wondering if it would be possible to put in a persons average daily points score over a month, a batting average if you like. It might encourage other people to set their own personal targets a little bit higher.

Thanks for getting into this. 

I was going to suggest before you replied about the system where I would suggest the lengthy "play it" section be given more points for sitting through and completing. For example if someone scores fully green in scores up to 100% then it should be higher points, if you are in the yellow zone then less and red zone the minimum. 

This would encourage more to play it and learn opposed to blitz flash card.

I use rocket record a lot for pronunciation and am happy with above.

Also write it would be a good change to focus on by giving more points as in Japanese we have to type in a new language.

I think more points for functions that involve learning that take up more time are the way to go.

I also have a few suggestions about creating custom audio upload for flashcards we share as well that I would like to bring up in another forum.

Hi William - I can look into it but we don't want to add complexity where it doesn't add value. It's probably something for the My Progress page.

Hi Tony - Play it! is on the list to look at more thoroughly. There are a few mods we want to make to how it works, so the points aspect will be part of that.

And, wrt Write it!, I would say that changing the points structure there is probably not as important as some other areas. So, I will add it to a list to be looked at. 

Re Jason, if you can check out the forum posts about the Japanese Language Proficiency Test I am taking this Sunday, you will find reference to some custom flash cards I have created.

It would be really awesome if there was a function where I could upload the custom .wav audio that relates to those cards to help others.

I have thousands of private flash cards on my PC that I have created over the years even by paying native Japanese people for a part time job to make some up for me and would really like to start sharing if possible.
 

Thanks Jason, you are right about that, I was just taking an over-view on things and that came to mind. The bit Tony brings up about the .wav audios is a valid point. In years gone by we both used BYKI and that had a facility for uploading flashcards with the audio files. 

Hi Tony/William - I have added that suggestion to a wishlist. We have a ton of stuff going on at the moment so prioritization is important! For example, we are re-recording the Rocket Japanese Level 1 Interactive lessons with native speakers. In fact the non-native vocabulary in the Level 1 transcripts has already been replaced with a native male speaker.

Thanks for the information Jason, it's nice to know that the boss takes an active interest in the customers concerns and ideas.

Hi all - The easy changes have been made, which should make it harder, or at least way more time consuming, for anyone to game the system. I wrote a blog post about it here; 
 

Thanks for that. I am seeing my rocket record button is only recording 1 point for speaking into the microphone. I thought you wrote above you would be changing it to 3 points?

Hi Tony - Try logging out and back in, or hard refresh the page!

Thanks, it is working now for 3 points. I have still not received 25 points for "play it" is that a 25 points for one time only like on the rocket quiz or a continue 25 points for every run through.

I appreciate the changes because it focuses more on language learning now with small goals within the course.

Hi Tony - I think that one is just about to be sorted out. We are looking at 25 points for every run through.

Thanks that is awesome. It is the role play like that which made my pronunciation perfect in Japan. Even though my vocabulary is limited to a good 3000 Japanese words, they really appreciate my correct pronunciation of their language and not butchering it like other tourists. I can seriously credit this website to pronunciation.

I have to agree with Tony on the pronunciation thing.  I was talking to some native Japanese ten days ago and got the responses I was expecting, so I am assuming my pronunciation was at least understandable.  That is 100% because of Rocket Japanese Play It and Rocket Record.  Thanks!

Hi Tony/Claudia - I am glad to hear it!

The leaderboard seems counterproductive in my opinion.  Having a points system so users can track their own work is fine. But the leaderboard might encourage some users to compete with one another over actually learning the material, which is a theory the allegations of cheating and some of the posts on here seem to support. Perhaps there's some benefit to the leaderboard that I'm overlooking?

Hi CTH86 - It's usually only one or two people that seem to be abusing the points/leaderboard system. Personally I think the Leaderboard adds interest to the learning process, although of course everyone is different!

That is true. Anything to keep people motivated is a good thing, especially with a commitment like learning a new language.

CTH86, it appears the leader board was being abused and this had now been rectified with the points being so insignificant that they will no longer be at the top of the list if they continue to cheat the way they did. If you look at the list for all languages you will see many new names are now on the list and the regulars who used to dominate the board have now vanished. Give it a week or two and the ones who did cheat for points will be gone.

The cheating was detrimental because for long time users making it to number 1 for all time usage is quite some dedication and someone who has earned that spot properly is going to be peeved when they see a cheater come along and try and take the spot in 6 months of what took them 3 years to do.

Sure they might be doing work most of the day and topping up their points balance at the end with flashcard cheating, but that has now been stopped.

The new system is brilliant as it awards 25 points for the "play it section" so for anyone who is motivated to be on top it forces them to go through lengthy conversation sentences to get the points.

Also last 24 hours is a bit misleading. It is saying I have a certain amount of points at the moment when I know I have much less.