Spanish - Castillian v. Latin American

Hi Spanish learners (and tutor!)

I may start learning Spanish again, and know that Rocket uses Latin American.  Have any of you had experience of how well you communicated in Spain using Latin American Spanish that you could share?

I know from when I used to study Spanish that there were some differences in vocabulary.  The accent is less of a concern to me because Andalucia and Extramadura have accents more similar to Latin American as far as I recall, as an example.

Any useful feedback would be very welcome.

Thanks!

Chris

Unless you are trying to sound like a native, my understanding/experience is that there is excellent understanding between Latins and Spaniards. Heck, even within Latin America there are some fairly significant differences (Vos in some Latin American countries for example).

I like to compare it to US English vs British English (I lived in Europe for 6 years, so I have experienced this quite a bit). When someone English (or even worse, a Scot - I have Scottish ancestry) uses a word I have never heard (or is used differently than I know), usually I can tell by context what they are saying or you can ignore it. 

“I had to put on my jumpers and get going.” Obviously some sort of clothing item and probably doesn't matter for the conversation. A jumper is a sweater in US English.

“The bairn wouldn't stop crying.”  First time I heard “bairn” I had no idea what it meant it was such a different word. But with a few moments thought I knew it was “baby” but it was such an odd word it just stunned me a moment. I have mostly heard “bairn” from my Scottish relatives, but maybe it gets further south.

Hope that helps!

Excellent analogy, Scott!  Your point about regional variations within Latin America is well made.

FYI, “bairn” is also an expression used in Northumbria, as it exchanged hands between the Anglo-Saxon kingdom and the Scots many times.

Thanks again.

Chris

Hi Chris and Scott

I am doing Rocket Spanish. Busuu offers European Spanish and frankly I can't see that much diference. I think Scott makes a very good point. In South Africa we speak British English. Even though Canadians are part of the Common Wealth many terms are in American English. 

I get some odd looks at times and also people going “HUH what is that?”

I speak European Portuguese or Mozambican too. Most Portuguese language courses are Brazilian. I have been using Busuu for Brazilian Poetuguese, as can't read or write it and my grammar is not great. As Busuu includes all the languages they offer, I thought I would give it a go to get a grip on spelling and grammar. My husband is very snobbish about Brazilian vs European Portuguese, but even he has had to concede that the grammar is the same. Pronunciation and expressions not so much.

So I think at the end of the day it is not critical. 

Maxie

Hi Sharon

I hope you're all well.  Thanks for your thoughts. How do you find Busuu and how does it compare with Rocket, do you think?  I already have a grounding in Spanish from years back, but it's not even close to my Italian.

Thanks

Chris

Hi Chris

All well here. That said we have just gone back into winter mode. Garden covered in snow. The plus side of that is that you can't see the weeds. :)

Busuu is really good, as it includes all languages that they offer if you subscibe. Downside its  a yearly subscription. No speaking other that one exercise per module. E.G “I am from …” initially. 

So not as good as Rocket, but then what is. I find it good for revision, as small bites of grammar. Still find Rocket overwhelming in that department.  Busuui s  better than Babbel, I think. I like the grammar and vocabulary revisions for Busuu. 

Still get confused with essere and stare. Then add Spanish and Portuguese to the mix and it is difficult to remember the differences. Well I am always up to a challenge. 

Hope your weather is better than ours. That said being from Africa still find the snow lovely. Locals moan and grumble not stop. Family in Portugal reckon winter there is over and getting warmer by the day.

By the way I believe Jason said “Play the part” Italian and Spanish coming soon. I use it for German and it beats the Travelogues hand down. Paractical everyday expereinces. Found those lessons amazing. When in Germany going into a bakery was a breeze, as Play the Part had an excellent lesson on that theme

Keep well

Maxie

Strange - I got an email of AI22's response but it is not hear. Didn't seem controversial so not sure why it is gone.

Maxie - knowing how to handle an event (going to the bakery) is certainly a step up but I would be worried they would go off script or ask me something completely unrelated. Still I am sure it is helpful and I will look into it when it comes out.

Hi Scott

Yes , that did happen on occasion. I was surprised though that I was not scared to speak, for fear of making an idiot of myself. At the end of the day we cobbled along well and people were just lovely. 

I had to go into a pharmacy and ask for something for allergies. My husband battled with allergies while there. He does here on Vancouver island too. Turns out he is highly allergic to grasses and trees and cats. The cats we knew about. Difficult to avoid going outside. Trees and grasses there were similar to here. Had not done that lesson in Play the part yet, but managed. 

They spoke no English either. Probably came across as an idiot, but did get the correct meds. :)

Maxie

I am really surprised nobody spoke English in a German pharmacy. I suspect they chose not to to avoid any possible miscommunication (being a medical establishment). When we lived in Germany it seemed like it was the rare German who didn't speak some English and many (maybe not quite most) that we dealt with were near fluent.

That's funny! I do the same with regard to editing. I do admit, you can get verbose but there are always some nuggets in your posts so I read every one of them!

Hi Maxie

We actually (amazed expression on face!) gor out into the garden and tidied up; trimmed the vine, etc.  Bizarre, weather.

To my mind, communication is all - the rest is detail.  In my neck of the woods (south-east England) there are many immigrants, and having instantly recognised their accents, solely focus on what they are saying.  Incorrect grammar and vocabulary isn't important - I understand what they are communicating.  Job done.

All the best

Chris

Hi Chris

Lucky you. We started our morning with - 4. Lovely sunshine and the garden is still mostly covered in snow still. We need rain to clear it, but it is so pretty. So between, cold rain and snow will not be going into my garden anytime soon. That's okay, plenty of time for that. 

No travel plans yet. Philip is flat out until beginning of May. We both quite fancy Japan, but the language and road signs intimidating. Feel more comfortable in Europe. I am all thinking of going back to South Africa. I want to sit in the bush for 3 weeks. A lovely lodge bordering the Kruger Park. Quite basic, lodge, not one of the luxury ones. They cater to international tourists and cost a bomb. I can do basicand better than camping. If Philip wants to do an epic walk somewhere I will go back to S.A. Get to speak Afrikaans and Zulu which makes me happy too.

A presto

Maxie

¡Hola a todos!

It’s lovely to hear about all the experiences you guys have had using Spanish and different languages abroad. 

Just jumping in with a bit of extra information about the differences between Castillian Spanish and Latin American Spanish. 

I’ve taken an excerpt from one of our blog posts, which I think captures the difference quite nicely:

"Spanish isn't a static, uniform language, just like English isn't. In the same way people in America, Britain, Australia, and New Zealand all speak English with distinct accents and regional variations, so is the case with Spanish. However, almost all learn-Spanish courses, including Rocket Spanish, base their material on the most widely accepted Spanish, which is promoted by the Royal Spanish Academy. The variations that exist among different Spanish-speaking countries, for the most part, concern the pronunciation and the use of the vosotros “you guys” form. Regardless of the type of Spanish you learn, you'll be able to communicate effectively with Spanish speakers from all around the world."

As you guys pointed out, there are a few other main differences to be aware of, including vocabulary. Although each country within Latin America and, of course, Spain has a unique lexicon of vocabulary, you will most likely be understood no matter which word you use. For example, you will still be understood in Spain saying carro “car” instead of coche “car,” just like you will be understood in the USA saying biscuit instead of cookie. 

Another sneaky difference to look out for is the use of different modismos or “idioms.” Idioms in language always have a cultural element to them, and as such, you will hear idioms in Spain that you might not in Latin America and visverca. 

Looking forward to your replies!

Indy

Gracias Indy.

I agree, language does differ, one still understands. Mozambican Portuguese is different in some ways to European, but I have always been understood. My husband's family recently morved to POrtugal. They all grew up in Mozambique. A man from Lisbon told one of my brother in laws that his Portuguese was coming along nicely. He is a bit of a prickly person and got quite indignant, but it made me laugh. 

Watching YouTube cooking shows, some of the dialects are more difficult to understand. Even my husband who is Portuguese struggles to understand Azorean Portuguese if they speak fast. on TV, but in the Azores I think he would be fine.

Take care

Maxie

Thanks for that, Indy.  Totally relatable.  I will be buying Rocket Spanish asap!

Thanks Indy, although I would bet that most Americans would look at you pretty strangely when you said biscuit but meant cookie (alhtough they would know you were talking food at least).  Crisps is another one that I am not sure most Americans know. I would say a lot of Americans seem to know lorry and barrister for some reason, but we Americans tend to be pretty ego centric!

Quite some time ago a mexican owned restaurant served what I knew to be fish and chips, and that's what I ordered one day without consulting the menu from a young mexican woman who spoke english exceptionally well.

She returned with a plate of deep fried, breaded fish and tortilla chips.

At first I was pissed off because I thought she was mocking me, but I didn't get

sharp with her.

After talking with her I found that the plate I wanted she knew to be fish dinner, which was on the menu. However the fact remains that fish with tortilla chips was not. But, some mexicans will agreeably give you what they think you want.

I explained to her that fish and chips is of english origin and that the chips are fried potatoes, in America the potatoes are french fries.

She took the plate back to the kitchen.

She soon cheerfully brought my fish dinner / fish and chips after that but it could be either way - maybe she was ignorant of the food terminology or maybe she was playing me for some amusement. I don't know.

The following is off the gist of the conversation, but I do like a breakfast burrito with eggs and chorizo from time to time.

However, in another restaurant, of which I ate at frequently, I ordered such a burrito and, as some mexican cooks are careless about grease and I don't like grease dripping on my shirt when I'm eating while driving, I asked to have the cooks get the grease out of it, which quite certainly can be done.

When the burrito came out I had a funny feeling and unrolled it. It was swimming in grease inside the tortilla. It was obvious they not only didn't drain the grease but added to it. They never would have sent huevos con chorizo out on an open plate looking like that. I told the waitress I wasn't paying for it and left - the burrito stayed, didn't go back for a couple years.

It was 6 in the morning and I was the only customer, there's no excuse for it

I was gratified to find the restaurant was sold a couple months ago and the kitchen has entirely new faces.

At yet another restaurant I went through the drive thru with the same request. After I drove off I discovered I had a bean and grease burrito instead of what I ordered.

Returning to the restaurant I walked in and yelled at the cook over the counter did he think that was funny while calling him vile names because I sure didn't think it was funny. I was hopping mad pissed off. I didn't go back there for years either, not until it had new owners.

The only thing I can think of is Americans can be quite anal about animal fat and calories whereas Mexicans don't give it much thought, and maybe those mexican cooks didn't like Americans being so prissy about their food and got passive aggressive with me about it.

I just don't like grease on my shirt nor do I appreciate my food being screwed with.

Telling a cook how to prepare a meal is definitely one way to irritate them. I have a brother in the industry and he has shared stories. What you asked was very reasonable, but I could see how it would irritiate a cook. That said, absolutley no excuse for doing what they did, but be careful. When I worked in a kitchen (long time ago), I saw people spit in food before taking it out. The food industry is rough!

Hi Alan

In South Africa fries are called chips. A grilled sandwich is called a toasted cheese. 

Canadians have no clue what that is and will bring you toast and a slice of cheese. Hasn't happened to me, but to a friend. When one immigrates one learns to use the correct words. My husband asked for chips and got crisps instead of fries. I was amused he was not. 

Take care

Maxie

At least there is no American equivalent of crisps. If someone asked for crisps, you would definitely get a strange look.

Scott, I wasn't telling them how to prepare a meal, as you have noted.

And I've also had mexican cooks cheerfully prepare anything off menu I ask for, sometimes right then when not busy, easy prep and having the ingredients but otherwise with advance notice of a couple days or so, without ripping me off at the cash register.

And that includes pipian rojo with turkey legs, a full pot's worth that was all mine, mine, mine.

I can understand a bunch of line cooks in a very busy haute cuisine restaurant having a whip and spur chef up their ass with customers wanting persnickity changes while demanding it NOW being cranky, and I've heard the old time stories about chefs yelling at kitchen staff “why are you ruining my food” while throwing a knife at the offender. 

But, there were no other customers in either of those places when I asked to not have a grease bath, and those cooks were assholes.

I understand that the restaurant industry is a tough, exhausting racket with a narrow profit margin along with a perishable product and fickle customers.

I also understand that waitresses have a hard job in several ways. I try to make friends with them, I tip them well and I will tolerate an overpriced, inferior meal if I like the help and I will come back.

However, I do understand the spit factor. If I have a problem, I will cash out and leave, and even if the problem has to do with a server I'll still leave a tip but I won't be back.

There are five restaurants out of hundreds I will have nothing to do with, and it mostly has to do with managers or owners who are assholes or don't think I'll notice them ripping me off.

That cook with the greasy bean burrito really pissed me off with the contempt he displayed, and the greasy chorizo burrito was a signal of disdain and disrespect.

Maxie, what would one get in canada if one asked for "chipped beef?”

I might do that with a restaurant tomorrow, assembling with gravy, a crumbled hamburger patty and dry toast. No one seems to do genuine sos anymore.

Allan

Funnily enough Maxie, we had a toastie(toasted cheese)  yesterday!  ¡Me gusta!

From a cook's prespective you were telling them how to prepare the meal (they consider everything from receiving the order to sending out the plate preparing the meal). 

To be sure, I was not criticizing you and in no way condoning what they did/do.

But I will tell you it can have nothing to do with how busy they are (as you found out) or the margin (the cooks never have a cut and chefs usually get a small cut at most). Cooks/chefs are well known to have more than a little ego, so the suggestion they don't know what they are doing or that their way is anything but the best is what you have run up against.

As you pointed out, it was thanfully just a few but I was just sharing what I learned from my brother (who now works a day job after many years as an executive chef).

I have to admit, after an adult lifetime in the military, including 3+ years in Afghanistan and 2+ years various other Middle East locations, I have never had SOS. I remember my grandfather (WW2 Army Air Forces) bitching about how much SOS he ate (and how much he hated it - he was very unhappy when I became a “shavetail”), so I assumed I would see it often.

Hi Chris

So the British use toasted as well. Should have guessed that. I wonder what American visitors get if they ask for a grilled sandwich. In South Africa, one would get puzzled looks and it may be put on the “Braai” incidently that is a colloquil term for a BBQ.

Language intrigues me so much. Never thought of studying them when I graduated from school. 

Take care

Maxie

PS Have you signed up for Spanish yet?

Scott, I didn't think you were critizing me or condoning them, but this is the bottom line for me: in the one case the employer lost my business until he was no longer in business, and the other employer lost my business for at least two years and I was glad to see those cooks gone when the ownership changed.

In another restaurant a manager screwed me out of just $3.00. I told him that it would cost him much more than that for what he did. He shrugged, but I kept track. I didn't return until there was at least $500.00 I didn't spend in his place.

His food wasn't good and he was overpriced, but I liked the help and eventually went back. But something else happened and I won't step foot in the place while he's still employed there.

Yet another restaurant has an owner and cooks who don't care about the product they turn out. I have no idea why, but there are people who rave about the place while babbling nonsense about “authenticity.”

The last day I patronized the place there was a large sign declaring a special on pozole on the front door, no price listed.

I like pozole.

So I asked the waitress how much was that bowl of pozole. She disappeared for a long time to get me a price. When she returned it was $11.00, not a bargain at the time but I ordered it anyway. When the check arrived the pozole was itemized at $13.00. I asked the owner what was this about, she told me that's the way it is. They haven't seen me since.

I patronized a pizza shop because the owners were essentially my neighbors and I knew they slaved long, long hours in that place to just get by, although their food wasn't all that good. The husband took advantage of me for a delivery on an occasion when I didn't entirely have my wits about me to the tune of $20.00 over. That's the last time I did business with them. I don't think the wife would have done that.

A genuine mexican restaurant with real mexican food had good eats for cheap. Maybe four years ago I ordered a plate and paid with a credit card up front. After seating myself, I looked at the reciept and realized I had been overcharged by $4.00.

I went back to the counter but the guy who cashed me out had disappeared, so I sent the guy who was there to go get him. It took the first guy a long time to reappear.

I wanted my $4.00 back, he wasn't going to do it at first. Then he tried the swap meet haggle about how much I would get back.

I'm too old for a free ride in a police car, at this stage of the game I might have trouble fighting my way out of a wet paper bag and chances are he had a knife anyway. So I left without my $4.00 or eating the meal. But, I won't be back. Ever.

I hate to say it, but all the people described above except the pizza guy are from mexico, the pizza guy and his wife are from egypt.

One owner I do like is temporaily out of business due to “an act of God.” He ran the place short handed and ran the girls hard and put them away wet, such as tending a packed bar and waiting tables in the crowded dining room at the same time, I think if they could make it there they can make it anywhere.

One of the waitresses, a personal friend, told me that the man brought order out of chaos even though he can be unreasonable while doing it, she appreciated the order. She has complaints about the owner but will defend him - once when someone referred to the owner as an asshole she straight up told him “I can call him an asshole, you can't.”

Whenever he reopens he has a whole crew ready to drop whatever they are doing and go back to work for him, because they made money hand over fist in his place.

Hi Maxie

I love languages as well. Learning them has been my main hobby for decades.  Dialects and accents are amazing as well.  For example, the American accent is a close reflection of how the English pronounced words in the 17th and 18th centuries.  What we now understand as a ‘posh’ English accent is the result of “received pronunciation” - the rich English in the 17th/18th century adopted a ‘posh’ accent to distinguish themselves from what they saw as the ‘rabble’ and over time, it became normal down to the middle class as well.  To understand who we are as a society today, we need to understand where we came from.

I am doing the trial version of Rocket Spanish and will definitely sign up within a few weeks.  I'm really enjoying relearning Spanish using Rocket, as my old course material was old school.  I'm also using Memrise and Clozemaster at the moment.

Speak soon.

Chris

Vote with our feets. One perso doesn't think they can make a difference, but many of companies have found out that many of those one persons can significantly impact business. Unfortunately for many small businesses (like many restaurants) don't realize what happened, so they don't learn and go out of business.

Hi Maxie

In answer to your question above, I have signed up for Rocket Spanish plus Play the Part.  As you said in another post, it seems to be more relevant to travel than Travelogues.

Chris

Hi Chris

Hope you are having fun. I have not purchased the Play the part yet. Missed the discount and now that it is 60% off all courses it doesn't seem to be listed. I will look again or contact the team with that query. Keep well 

Maxie

Hi again Chris

Found the Play the part and it is a good price, so will purchase that. I found the Italian Travelogues, good for Vocabilary, but prefer the Play the part. More practical for my needs. I believe they are going to bring out an Italian one too.

A presto 

Maxie

That's great you were able to sign up to it, Maxie.  It's certainly a good deal at 60% off and I agree that Play the Part is a good addition to the course.  I'm enjoying returning to Spanish, as the last time I studied it was with old school resources and Rocket makes it so much more enjoyable to learn.  

We're planning a holiday to Spain later in the year, so this will all be useful.

Hasta luego

Chris

Apologies but I just dropped in to say I really enjoyed this restaurant conversation and I am sorry to hear about your experiences but it was definitely interesting.

Given my eating preferences and the usual use of lard in mexican food I just don't generally bother unless it is well known and long established in the community.   I just assume I can't get a bean burrito or something without lard for the grease otherwise.

Aki, it seems that with mexicans fat on the meat is where the flavor is, and in judicious amounts with certain dishes, God help me, I agree.

Some marbling in the meat helps it cook tender and adds flavor regardless of cooking method. Hence the old practice of “larding” tough cuts of meat devoid of fat or connective tissue.

I once trimmed a point brisket clean of fat and smoked it for the requisite temperature and time. It was harder than a rock and a waste of good meat, there was no melting fat to baste it. Good brisket is moist and falls apart with a fork.

There is a difference in the flavor of beans with and without lard or bacon grease, and mexican beans will have some sort of pork fat for flavor.

7th Day Adventists, practicing Jews, vegetarians and certain others would do well for their dietary requirements to avoid beans prepared in latin american restaurants, and probably anywhere else for that matter.

Maybe 20 years ago I had a conversation with a restaurant owner in Ventura about his mexican employees.

He said he had to be after the new employees about trimming fat from meat because the cholesterol would be killing his customers. He was probably also concerned about health conscious customers or those thinking he was cheating them not coming back after finding a huge chunk of fat on their plate.

He had to be on them about cleaning up bits of food that fell on the floor because it would attract cockroaches.

There were other matters of hygiene he usually had to educate them about.

There was a mexican restaurant I patronized between 1987 to 2004 which had unique flavoring and was delicious. It wasn't the typical formula tex-mex dispensary raved about by self appointed google maps "local guides,” ignorant wanna be foodies and obnoxious “influencers” who film and post online everything about every unlikely,  frickin' restaurant meal they've ever eaten as “authentic mexican.”

The building, no five star edifice by any means, was in decent repair for its age and place. It was old.

I only recall women working there, they were probably related - extremely common for that type of operation. In their spanish conversation between themselves they could have made a whole aircraft carrier packed full of sailors blush with their potty mouths.

The cockroaches in that place were numerous and they weren't afraid of anyone on earth. They might have even launched a banzai suicide charge on the Orkin man if they had only been smart enough to identify him as the ultimate enemy.

There were probably rodents too.

But the food was super good, and of everyone I knew who regularly ate there, maybe 30 people, I never heard of anyone getting sick.

But it was disconcerting one time I saw a cockroach in the bowl of the restroom urinal (of course I hosed him down) and after reseating myself discovered another traversing the table toward my plate.

I would never again eat in a restaurant with that sort of vermin problem, but it didn't bother me back then for that place.

I've never seen anything like that anywhere else, and I've eaten in some run down, falling apart places, so I'm not suggesting it's typical of mexican eateries to be infested with vermin.

And to be clear, even though I consistently trash those who confuse tex-mex with mexican food, and probably always will, I like good tex-mex prepared by those who put their heart into their creations.

It's no fun to cook only for yourself, and wanting to cook for others is a way of giving a part of yourself to the other, no matter the style.

Yes I am in one of those groups and I don't mind fat except from an animal and it is not a moral thing for me either.

I had gone to a Chinese restaurant years back then later saw a story where they had to close it down for a month after the health inspector found cockroaches.  I was definitely not happy.  This is not all Chinese places mind you.

I like to try new foods…

One of the times I was working in the San Francisco Bay area I checked out a chinese restaurant somewhere between Walnut Creek and Martinez.

There was only one other person in there and I was seated right after he finished ordering.

I ordered something I had never tried before, and soon the waiter placed a plate in front of me.

The waiter returned to the kitchen and I had taken no more than two bites of the delicious whatever it was when there was a loud outburst of greatly enraged chinese language vituperation exploding through the kitchen door.

An older chinese man burst out of the kitchen and snatched the plate from under my fork while shouting “wrong order!!!”

As he was running back with the plate I said “I'll pay for it.” He loudly explained “NO!”

Almost immediately he bounced back out of the kitchen with the plate I apparently ordered, and after practically lofting the plate onto the table in front of me raced back to the kitchen.

He rapidly reappeared with a plate of food which greatly resembled what had originally been placed in front of me and placed it at the other person's table.

What ya want to bet he put the plate I had been eating off of on a kitchen counter and fluffed the fork marks out of the food before running it to the other table?